Huang Zhi-ming: 1) For Journey of a Yellow Man (1992), you have mentioned that you wanted to "elevate the symbolism of yellow to that of the color of the sun or that of gold". Is the use of paint on your body perhaps akin to the use of color in an impressionist painting? To what extent is your body like a component of a painting or sculpture?
LEE Wen: I have also mentioned that my background was in drawing and painting so I do not deny that I may have an “impressionist” in me in some ways, however I was more an “expressionist” painter. We all come from some context and mine was in Singapore where I grew up looking at paintings and making paintings. I am not a purist and I do not deny being eclectic. If you look at the time I did the “yellow man” at the Substation, I had paintings, drawings, objects and photographs. To my mind they were all there as part of a whole installation. I wanted to approach performance art at the level I could grow and evolve from where I come from, and in such a way that hopefully the local audience could relate to it too. If we look at performance art history, most would see it as a western construct, its link to painting is definitely there as well. To what extent is the body not a component in painting and sculpture anyway? Even painting and sculpture can be seen as performative forms too. Maybe its a break away from previous concepts of painting and sculpture but there is still a continuity from the visual art in western fine art tradition. Looking at western art history, the human figure and portraiture became more and more prominent since the 13th century onwards. Chinese painting however had its mastery in landscape where the human figure is seldom such a central subject until much later perhaps only in the 17th or 18th century. This is again a result of the context and perception of the human form representing man’s place in the cosmos, based on Judaic-Christian traditions in the west and Taoist-Confucianist in China. So how does one reconcile that? There were a lot of issues, such as cultural symbols, history, ethnicity, identity, Diaspora, etc, which I was concerned with and I was just using any which way I know how and feel is relevant at the time. There were complexities I could not deal with working in painting or sculpture alone. As I have said many times before its not as if I know all the answers but rather I see art-making as a way to question and to think through things.
Huang: 2) You've said that the chains in Journey of a Yellow Man gave the impression of social bondage but at the same time also direction and continuity and behavior. Is the physical "impression" presented to the audience more important than what your physical self experiences at the moment of the performance?
LW: Its hard to talk about one’s personal illusions and desires directly. Through art we may find a way to talk together and share what we have. Find things out. If you make a painting of iron chains just by looking at them it would be different if you held them in your hands, put them around your body, and see what it does to you. In a performance we use materials and things and sometimes you are surprised that those things can say much more than one’s expectations. So here its not just one’s body we are talking about but the world at large. Also being in a place, a space, a time, the people around, not just those who came to watch art. Responding to it all. They all have significance. And its not over yet even after the performance ends.
3) So how important is the reality of the physical body in your performance, or in performance art generally?
LW: I am not sure I understand your question. How important is the physical body in reality? We talk about possibilities. Some people like art critic, Arthur Danto thinks we are kind of at the end of art.1 What should we do then? Stop making it? Perhaps, perhaps not? Everybody has a body. But I did not do performance art because of that. I wanted to do something which I found that works for me. It also concerns the time that it happened. I found it necessary. I do not reject other ways of working, but there are reasons, personal, social, cultural why I chose to deal with it through performance. One thing made me want to do it was also my understanding of Chinese or Asian culture where the individual is always subordinate to the social group. This makes us shy to be “outstanding” as in the Chinese saying that “one does not wish to be a camel in a sheep’s pen”. I am actually an awfully shy person and I think we need contradicting theses to grow and evolve if not then face stagnation. That was one reason that made me feel the need to push myself into performance. From Marcel Duchamp, we learn to become conscious of using “ready-made” objects which is in a state of flux and “undecidability” between being art and ordinary objects. The body is the most basic “ready-made” you can have.
Huang:4) Are your actions basically pre-meditated? Or is spontaneity important as well?
LW: I think about things before I do it. I allow for spontaneity if I can.
Huang:5) To what extent then does the aesthetic of the performance lie in your physical movements conveying, say, the yellow man's relations to the duality of the chains or to a space close to earth, to the audience?
LW: What is the aesthetic of performance? I don’t know. But I think we came to find out. My movements are just normal human movements, walking, lying down, running etc. Sometimes I find dancing and acting too much indulgence or embellishment. I like watching others do it but I find it unnecessary and pretentious to do it myself. To perform and to theorize about it is something else. So what is the performance? Or where is the art if one is doing actions which everyone else can do? Something is done to something or someone by someone else. We find that interesting, significant and we talk and think about it and call it art. It could be I am against art. Depends on what you mean by art. That is another question people are still asking about for centuries. In one series of work, “I am not a performance artist, this is not a work of art”, is partly motivated by some of these questions. I began the performance as a response to the conditions of performance art in Singapore but I find that people are so presumptious that they know what art is. I find it incredible sometimes to say that “I am an artist”. I sniggle beneath my breath each time I fill a form where it asks for my occupation.
Huang: 6) How much responsibility do you take in the audience's responses or interpretations, especially if your work causes a controversy?
LW: Of course I blame myself first.
7) You have said that Chinese rituals during Ching Ming or seventh month Hungry Ghost festival have features of installation and performance. To what extent then is performance art a form of ritual, and how should it exploit its ritualistic aspect?
LW: I grew up with Chinese rituals and for me when I look back at them they were a part of my life which I feel is closely related to what I do in art. I cannot imagine myself doing installations and performance art if I had not had that experience while growing up. Anthropologists like Victor Turner had identified the relationship between theater and rituals.2 So for me performance art did not start in the ‘60’s or came from the west. I saw it happened in the wayang festivals right outside my front door. And when you think about it they were doing it way back then in the caves. Of course the contexts have changed. There are rituals in schools, offices, sports and social life everywhere anyway. But not all performance artists like to see it that way. Ritual is a dirty word for some. Confucius talks about the importance of rites and rituals to maintain a balance of order and chaos in society. Traditional rituals sometimes become meaningless routines and there is this emphasis on hierarchy and other details which become tiresome and overbearing. I see repetition in ritual as a consciousness of being in time and perhaps eternity but for some its boring to watch. I have been heckled by other artists and educated audiences for doing it but it still works for me if we do it with a consciousness of its importance.
8) When you do the performances where you bury yourself in the ground for 24 hours, are you testing your physical reactions within the time frame or are you testing the concept of the time frame?
LW: That was a two part piece called “Nychthemer”, a Greek word for a 24 hour cycle which makes a full day. Not all cultures measured time that way. We are so used to the Greco-Roman calendar that we forget there are other ways of measuring time. For me the universal acceptance of the Greco-Roman calendar and measuring time as a 24 hour day was one of the first steps towards the globalised situation we are in today. I walked in a circle for 24 hours from sunset to next day’s sunset. One year later, I buried myself up to my waist at a spot on the same field for 24 hours. I was exploring my body and the environment I was in for a 24 hour cycle. The first time I was constantly moving, very slowly though. And one year later I was in a fixed position. Graphically, with my body I was drawing a circle first and then doting the center of that circle a year later. But it was not only a Cartesian question for me. The idea of it being a Greco/Roman way of measuring time became a trial experienced between sunsets. It was quite a personal piece that people could still relate to it in their own way.
9) You have used photographs of your own images during live performances. Do you consciously conceive your performance art as a multi-disciplinary art form?
LW: A photograph is something to use, just as any other object. I use what I need. Photographs and videos inform about a past which relates to the present performance. There is the ephemeral part of performance and its memory that we have to deal with. Using photographs and videos is one way. I describe my work as mixed-media. Performance theorist, Marvin Carlson calls performance art an anti-discipline.3 I am not a very disciplined person.
10) How would you define performance art? Would you contrast it with theater?
LW: I was in a theater festival where they wanted to show a whole range of theater.4 From classical to contemporary, experimental, multicultural, etc. And they put performance art as at the end of the spectrum. Some performance artists might want to question that. And some people think performance art is just bad theater. And some visual artists would not even accept performance art as art at all. But perhaps performance art is neither theater nor visual arts. It could be something else. Quite often performance artists dismiss a work if its “too theatrical”. But its all a matter of the artist’s philosophy and background. I do different things at different times. I would not shy away from the theater like some. I am eclectic that way too. I have worked with Ong Ken Sen as the puppet master in “Lao Jiu”. It was the most theatrical performance I have ever done. But there is a huge difference working with a theater group, written script and under direction. But then theatricality comes in degree. What was it in Shakespeare’s Macbeth, about life being a stage and everyone an actor. Sociologists talk about social roles and its actors. Maybe only Buddha can stop “acting”. That could be why in the ‘60’s American performance art scene, there was this affinity to Zen. But then again it could be the performativity aspect in Zen history itself which may have attracted them. Victor Turner and also performance theorist, director, Richard Schechner talks about the “limen” or “liminal” space we enter into where its a neutral zone or threshold where cultures, ideas or values collide.5 We feel uncomfortable to be in this space yet we need to negotiate with it.
11) Generally speaking, when would you regard a performance as being masturbatory or gratuitous?
LW: I wonder why you ask such a question? There are masturbators everywhere in every form. Arthur Danto once described performance art as “disturbation” which has its allusion to masturbation.6 I guess he’s probably not a big fan of performance art. But performance art can be disturbing since it works in a “liminal” space in extreme intensity sometimes. Perhaps its extreme “undecidability” makes us uncomfortable and we like to dismiss the practioners as mere “masturbators”. Another reason for that could be that many performance artists work from the precept that “the personal is the political” and seem to be talking about themselves if we don’t “get it” at all. But its hard to generalise, there are more than one way to masturbate.
12) Censorship - what is it good for? Absolutely nothing? If deemed necessary, who should be empowered to censor? In what circumstances?
LW: Read my lips. Censorship exists everywhere because there is a clash of values and the powers that be find it safer to stop one of them. For the artist, time is the only legitimate censor.
13) What is the role of performance artist in a society like Singapore?
LW: Actually, I wanted to give a one word non-answer, “Rosebud” and stop there because answering this question is like trying to convince you of my self-importance as a performance artist and that would be masturbatory. But I think this is an important question about art and society. The real question is what is the role of art and artists in society? How much value a society places on art shows its humanity, its nobility. A Mexican artist died and was given a state funeral almost as grand as that fit for royalty. 7 Of course we can say that he was an artist whose works had moved that society. But each society gets the artists they wish for. Why does India has so many saints? Because the people asks for them. I hope Singapore is not only going to produce businessmen, bankers and bureaucrats. Why does Singapore has performance artists? Because there are needs to fulfill. One of the reasons I have mentioned before is the need to assert individualism. Some may argue that individualism weakens social cohesion. On the contrary, I think that strong individuals makes a strong society. I would not swear that performance art is the only way, however diversity ensures a healthy environment for growth and creativity. Singapore is deemed to be most well prepared for the globalised future. That also means we are easily absorbing the strong input of commercialised mass culture from the enterprising developed countries like U.S. and Japan. Are we all going to end up as Madonna wannabes or Pokemon psychos? But I must admit in all these rationalisation too there is an irrational side of art which we need that has its own sovereignty and Singapore of all places need that to keep its own sanity.
LEE Wen: I have also mentioned that my background was in drawing and painting so I do not deny that I may have an “impressionist” in me in some ways, however I was more an “expressionist” painter. We all come from some context and mine was in Singapore where I grew up looking at paintings and making paintings. I am not a purist and I do not deny being eclectic. If you look at the time I did the “yellow man” at the Substation, I had paintings, drawings, objects and photographs. To my mind they were all there as part of a whole installation. I wanted to approach performance art at the level I could grow and evolve from where I come from, and in such a way that hopefully the local audience could relate to it too. If we look at performance art history, most would see it as a western construct, its link to painting is definitely there as well. To what extent is the body not a component in painting and sculpture anyway? Even painting and sculpture can be seen as performative forms too. Maybe its a break away from previous concepts of painting and sculpture but there is still a continuity from the visual art in western fine art tradition. Looking at western art history, the human figure and portraiture became more and more prominent since the 13th century onwards. Chinese painting however had its mastery in landscape where the human figure is seldom such a central subject until much later perhaps only in the 17th or 18th century. This is again a result of the context and perception of the human form representing man’s place in the cosmos, based on Judaic-Christian traditions in the west and Taoist-Confucianist in China. So how does one reconcile that? There were a lot of issues, such as cultural symbols, history, ethnicity, identity, Diaspora, etc, which I was concerned with and I was just using any which way I know how and feel is relevant at the time. There were complexities I could not deal with working in painting or sculpture alone. As I have said many times before its not as if I know all the answers but rather I see art-making as a way to question and to think through things.
Huang: 2) You've said that the chains in Journey of a Yellow Man gave the impression of social bondage but at the same time also direction and continuity and behavior. Is the physical "impression" presented to the audience more important than what your physical self experiences at the moment of the performance?
LW: Its hard to talk about one’s personal illusions and desires directly. Through art we may find a way to talk together and share what we have. Find things out. If you make a painting of iron chains just by looking at them it would be different if you held them in your hands, put them around your body, and see what it does to you. In a performance we use materials and things and sometimes you are surprised that those things can say much more than one’s expectations. So here its not just one’s body we are talking about but the world at large. Also being in a place, a space, a time, the people around, not just those who came to watch art. Responding to it all. They all have significance. And its not over yet even after the performance ends.
3) So how important is the reality of the physical body in your performance, or in performance art generally?
LW: I am not sure I understand your question. How important is the physical body in reality? We talk about possibilities. Some people like art critic, Arthur Danto thinks we are kind of at the end of art.1 What should we do then? Stop making it? Perhaps, perhaps not? Everybody has a body. But I did not do performance art because of that. I wanted to do something which I found that works for me. It also concerns the time that it happened. I found it necessary. I do not reject other ways of working, but there are reasons, personal, social, cultural why I chose to deal with it through performance. One thing made me want to do it was also my understanding of Chinese or Asian culture where the individual is always subordinate to the social group. This makes us shy to be “outstanding” as in the Chinese saying that “one does not wish to be a camel in a sheep’s pen”. I am actually an awfully shy person and I think we need contradicting theses to grow and evolve if not then face stagnation. That was one reason that made me feel the need to push myself into performance. From Marcel Duchamp, we learn to become conscious of using “ready-made” objects which is in a state of flux and “undecidability” between being art and ordinary objects. The body is the most basic “ready-made” you can have.
Huang:4) Are your actions basically pre-meditated? Or is spontaneity important as well?
LW: I think about things before I do it. I allow for spontaneity if I can.
Huang:5) To what extent then does the aesthetic of the performance lie in your physical movements conveying, say, the yellow man's relations to the duality of the chains or to a space close to earth, to the audience?
LW: What is the aesthetic of performance? I don’t know. But I think we came to find out. My movements are just normal human movements, walking, lying down, running etc. Sometimes I find dancing and acting too much indulgence or embellishment. I like watching others do it but I find it unnecessary and pretentious to do it myself. To perform and to theorize about it is something else. So what is the performance? Or where is the art if one is doing actions which everyone else can do? Something is done to something or someone by someone else. We find that interesting, significant and we talk and think about it and call it art. It could be I am against art. Depends on what you mean by art. That is another question people are still asking about for centuries. In one series of work, “I am not a performance artist, this is not a work of art”, is partly motivated by some of these questions. I began the performance as a response to the conditions of performance art in Singapore but I find that people are so presumptious that they know what art is. I find it incredible sometimes to say that “I am an artist”. I sniggle beneath my breath each time I fill a form where it asks for my occupation.
Huang: 6) How much responsibility do you take in the audience's responses or interpretations, especially if your work causes a controversy?
LW: Of course I blame myself first.
7) You have said that Chinese rituals during Ching Ming or seventh month Hungry Ghost festival have features of installation and performance. To what extent then is performance art a form of ritual, and how should it exploit its ritualistic aspect?
LW: I grew up with Chinese rituals and for me when I look back at them they were a part of my life which I feel is closely related to what I do in art. I cannot imagine myself doing installations and performance art if I had not had that experience while growing up. Anthropologists like Victor Turner had identified the relationship between theater and rituals.2 So for me performance art did not start in the ‘60’s or came from the west. I saw it happened in the wayang festivals right outside my front door. And when you think about it they were doing it way back then in the caves. Of course the contexts have changed. There are rituals in schools, offices, sports and social life everywhere anyway. But not all performance artists like to see it that way. Ritual is a dirty word for some. Confucius talks about the importance of rites and rituals to maintain a balance of order and chaos in society. Traditional rituals sometimes become meaningless routines and there is this emphasis on hierarchy and other details which become tiresome and overbearing. I see repetition in ritual as a consciousness of being in time and perhaps eternity but for some its boring to watch. I have been heckled by other artists and educated audiences for doing it but it still works for me if we do it with a consciousness of its importance.
8) When you do the performances where you bury yourself in the ground for 24 hours, are you testing your physical reactions within the time frame or are you testing the concept of the time frame?
LW: That was a two part piece called “Nychthemer”, a Greek word for a 24 hour cycle which makes a full day. Not all cultures measured time that way. We are so used to the Greco-Roman calendar that we forget there are other ways of measuring time. For me the universal acceptance of the Greco-Roman calendar and measuring time as a 24 hour day was one of the first steps towards the globalised situation we are in today. I walked in a circle for 24 hours from sunset to next day’s sunset. One year later, I buried myself up to my waist at a spot on the same field for 24 hours. I was exploring my body and the environment I was in for a 24 hour cycle. The first time I was constantly moving, very slowly though. And one year later I was in a fixed position. Graphically, with my body I was drawing a circle first and then doting the center of that circle a year later. But it was not only a Cartesian question for me. The idea of it being a Greco/Roman way of measuring time became a trial experienced between sunsets. It was quite a personal piece that people could still relate to it in their own way.
9) You have used photographs of your own images during live performances. Do you consciously conceive your performance art as a multi-disciplinary art form?
LW: A photograph is something to use, just as any other object. I use what I need. Photographs and videos inform about a past which relates to the present performance. There is the ephemeral part of performance and its memory that we have to deal with. Using photographs and videos is one way. I describe my work as mixed-media. Performance theorist, Marvin Carlson calls performance art an anti-discipline.3 I am not a very disciplined person.
10) How would you define performance art? Would you contrast it with theater?
LW: I was in a theater festival where they wanted to show a whole range of theater.4 From classical to contemporary, experimental, multicultural, etc. And they put performance art as at the end of the spectrum. Some performance artists might want to question that. And some people think performance art is just bad theater. And some visual artists would not even accept performance art as art at all. But perhaps performance art is neither theater nor visual arts. It could be something else. Quite often performance artists dismiss a work if its “too theatrical”. But its all a matter of the artist’s philosophy and background. I do different things at different times. I would not shy away from the theater like some. I am eclectic that way too. I have worked with Ong Ken Sen as the puppet master in “Lao Jiu”. It was the most theatrical performance I have ever done. But there is a huge difference working with a theater group, written script and under direction. But then theatricality comes in degree. What was it in Shakespeare’s Macbeth, about life being a stage and everyone an actor. Sociologists talk about social roles and its actors. Maybe only Buddha can stop “acting”. That could be why in the ‘60’s American performance art scene, there was this affinity to Zen. But then again it could be the performativity aspect in Zen history itself which may have attracted them. Victor Turner and also performance theorist, director, Richard Schechner talks about the “limen” or “liminal” space we enter into where its a neutral zone or threshold where cultures, ideas or values collide.5 We feel uncomfortable to be in this space yet we need to negotiate with it.
11) Generally speaking, when would you regard a performance as being masturbatory or gratuitous?
LW: I wonder why you ask such a question? There are masturbators everywhere in every form. Arthur Danto once described performance art as “disturbation” which has its allusion to masturbation.6 I guess he’s probably not a big fan of performance art. But performance art can be disturbing since it works in a “liminal” space in extreme intensity sometimes. Perhaps its extreme “undecidability” makes us uncomfortable and we like to dismiss the practioners as mere “masturbators”. Another reason for that could be that many performance artists work from the precept that “the personal is the political” and seem to be talking about themselves if we don’t “get it” at all. But its hard to generalise, there are more than one way to masturbate.
12) Censorship - what is it good for? Absolutely nothing? If deemed necessary, who should be empowered to censor? In what circumstances?
LW: Read my lips. Censorship exists everywhere because there is a clash of values and the powers that be find it safer to stop one of them. For the artist, time is the only legitimate censor.
13) What is the role of performance artist in a society like Singapore?
LW: Actually, I wanted to give a one word non-answer, “Rosebud” and stop there because answering this question is like trying to convince you of my self-importance as a performance artist and that would be masturbatory. But I think this is an important question about art and society. The real question is what is the role of art and artists in society? How much value a society places on art shows its humanity, its nobility. A Mexican artist died and was given a state funeral almost as grand as that fit for royalty. 7 Of course we can say that he was an artist whose works had moved that society. But each society gets the artists they wish for. Why does India has so many saints? Because the people asks for them. I hope Singapore is not only going to produce businessmen, bankers and bureaucrats. Why does Singapore has performance artists? Because there are needs to fulfill. One of the reasons I have mentioned before is the need to assert individualism. Some may argue that individualism weakens social cohesion. On the contrary, I think that strong individuals makes a strong society. I would not swear that performance art is the only way, however diversity ensures a healthy environment for growth and creativity. Singapore is deemed to be most well prepared for the globalised future. That also means we are easily absorbing the strong input of commercialised mass culture from the enterprising developed countries like U.S. and Japan. Are we all going to end up as Madonna wannabes or Pokemon psychos? But I must admit in all these rationalisation too there is an irrational side of art which we need that has its own sovereignty and Singapore of all places need that to keep its own sanity.